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[Kb-complexity] Re: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2




Maybe my language wasn't precise enough. As you state a linear system is one in which we can predict its behaviour from a linear equation, e.g. F=ma Using this equation alone can have enormous implications on the real world in terms of being able to predict events that will happen in the future. I tend to even see equations like F=GMM/r2, which is not strictly linear because is has a quadratic term as linear because it is easily tractable. These equations, won't help, however when we try to measure non-linear systems. Even Ed Lotrenz' equations used in his weather forecasting about forty years ago, though they are simple, because terms depend on terms that relate back to themselves, mean the outcomes are far less obvious and even the slightest variation in measurement will predict a significantly different outcome.As you say, biological, ecological and social systems are non-linear and linear methods of trying to measure them and use those results to predict the future are unlikely to provide any real predictability. However, so many people try to measure complex systems using linear measuring tools. As I stated, even making the first step of recognising that non-linear systems need to investigated differently and thinking about non-linear systems from a complexity perspective is in itself a signfiicant step forward.

Cheers
victor

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 8, Issue 1 (Victor@34sp)
   2. Re: Re: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 8, Issue 1 (kk aw)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
[Kb-complexity] Re: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 8, Issue 1
From:
"Victor@34sp" <victor@vmacgill.net>
Date:
Sat, 05 May 2007 15:13:13 +1200
To:
kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com

To:
kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com


My maths is pretty basic - I got a C- at first year university mathematics 25 years ago, and while it stops me from understanding much of the depth of what complex is and how and why it works, I still find I am able to gain tremendous benefit from understanding the general principles and philosophy underlying Complexity.

I think the first major step for learning to use complexity in the real world is simply the acceptance of the fact that very little of the world runs under linear principles and using models based on linear systems, while they may have many areas of applicability, they will always fall short of really describing accurately the world, and life in particular. Merely thinking in non-linear terms opens many possibilities and the greater the understanding of complexity, the clearer we become about what we can affect and what we can't, and they ways we can work with complex systems.
Cheers
Victor MAcGill

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Today's Topics:

   1. Do you need maths for CS? How to use CS for Org    Change?
      (Carol Webb)
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Subject:
[Kb-complexity] Do you need maths for CS? How to use CS for Org Change?
From:
Carol Webb <carolwebb75@yahoo.com>
Date:
Fri, 4 May 2007 06:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
To:
kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com

To:
kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com


Dear Folks

Friday afternoon thoughts and questions for you...

Someone emailed me and asked,

"Do you need a maths degree to appreciate complexity
science?"

"Is there a route into complexity science so it can be
picked up as a "mechanism" for organisational change?"

I have my own responses to this - but I'd like to ask
you all for your thoughts... how would you answer?

Looking forward to any replies.

Best wishes, Carol


    Best wishes, Carol.

Dr Carol Webb, Research Officer, School of Applied Sciences, Cranfield University, Beds, MK43 0AL, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 (0)7930405603 Carol Webb's profile on www.linkedin.com: http://www.linkedin.com/in/carolwebb - add yourself to my professional network using my email address carolwebb75@yahoo.com






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Subject:
Re: [Kb-complexity] Re: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 8, Issue 1
From:
kk aw <kkaw@multicentric.com>
Date:
Sat, 05 May 2007 12:51:37 +0800
To:
victor@vmacgill.net, KnowledgeBoard: Complexity group mailing list <kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com>

To:
victor@vmacgill.net, KnowledgeBoard: Complexity group mailing list <kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com>
CC:


Dear Victor,

I am not sure what you understand by linear systems. I tend to relate linear systems to physical systems that follow the linear equation, or at least part of the equation is linear. Engineers use this property to design systems that can be predicted to behave in a certain way, within the designed constraints, for a certain period of time. In reality, aging, wear and tear, corrosion, fatigue, etc. will all change the behavior of the physical systems. Unfortunately, the layman tends to look at scientist and engineers in awe and give them too much credit for what they know. Take a pencil. No scientist or engineer can tell you precisely at what load it will break if you bend it. If they carry out sufficient number of tests, they can tell you at what load it won't break with a certain amount of certainty.

To me, biological, ecological and social systems, among others, are complex systems. There is always uncertainty. Also the systems can be adaptive. Depending on the triggers, events and environment, the systems can behave completely differently. On hindsight, we may be able to understand what happened. Developing the foresight is what makes is so fascinating and challenging. It can also be very frightening.

Regards,
KK Aw





Victor@34sp wrote:
My maths is pretty basic - I got a C- at first year university mathematics 25 years ago, and while it stops me from understanding much of the depth of what complex is and how and why it works, I still find I am able to gain tremendous benefit from understanding the general principles and philosophy underlying Complexity.

I think the first major step for learning to use complexity in the real world is simply the acceptance of the fact that very little of the world runs under linear principles and using models based on linear systems, while they may have many areas of applicability, they will always fall short of really describing accurately the world, and life in particular. Merely thinking in non-linear terms opens many possibilities and the greater the understanding of complexity, the clearer we become about what we can affect and what we can't, and they ways we can work with complex systems.
Cheers
Victor MAcGill

kb-complexity-request@list.knowledgeboard.com wrote:
Send Kb-complexity mailing list submissions to
    kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com

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    http://list.knowledgeboard.com/mailman/listinfo/kb-complexity
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    kb-complexity-request@list.knowledgeboard.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
    kb-complexity-owner@list.knowledgeboard.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Kb-complexity digest..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today's Topics:

   1. Do you need maths for CS? How to use CS for Org    Change?
      (Carol Webb)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
[Kb-complexity] Do you need maths for CS? How to use CS for Org Change?
From:
Carol Webb <carolwebb75@yahoo.com>
Date:
Fri, 4 May 2007 06:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
To:
kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com

To:
kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com


Dear Folks

Friday afternoon thoughts and questions for you...

Someone emailed me and asked,

"Do you need a maths degree to appreciate complexity
science?"

"Is there a route into complexity science so it can be
picked up as a "mechanism" for organisational change?"

I have my own responses to this - but I'd like to ask
you all for your thoughts... how would you answer?

Looking forward to any replies.

Best wishes, Carol


    Best wishes, Carol.

Dr Carol Webb, Research Officer, School of Applied Sciences, Cranfield University, Beds, MK43 0AL, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 (0)7930405603 Carol Webb's profile on www.linkedin.com: http://www.linkedin.com/in/carolwebb - add yourself to my professional network using my email address carolwebb75@yahoo.com






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