[Kb-complexity] RE: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 1, Issue 3

"Glenda Eoyang" <geoyang@hsdinstitute.org> · Wed, 8 Mar 2006 06:56:36 -0600

Greetings,
I am with the Human Systems Dynamics (HSD) Institute.  We work in
collaboration to develop theory and practice at the intersection between
complexity and social sciences.  We call this intersection HSD because in a
few critical ways it is different from complexity as it appears in physical
systems, and, because of the focus on the nonlinear dynamics, it is
different from other social science disciplines.  Enough about me . . . 

The relationship between complexity and systems theory is itself complex!
This I think would be a worthwhile conversation on this list.  I just
finished a chapter in a book that looked at systems approaches to
evaluation.  The other writers were systems researchers and practitioners
who applied their discipline to evaluate projects, programs, people, and
institutions.  One of the conversations among us was how to get a coherent
characterization of the systems field that would incorporate each of our
various approaches within the whole.  Good systemic question, yes?  It
turned out not to be an easy question.  

Gerald Midgley uses a metaphor to talk about the "waves" of development in
systems theory.  First, he says, we thought systems were out there to be
discovered (e.g., initial stocks, flows, and feedback loops).  Then we
recognized that systems were constructs we created to help us make meaning
of whatever was out there (e.g., initial soft systems and complexity).
Finally we see the roles of power and priviledge in selection of the
explanatory system and shaping the understanding of others (e.g., initial
critical systems theory). 

I say "initial" in each case because each of the approaches (methodologies,
methods, tools)has evolved to accommodate later developments.  Midgley's
perspective puts complex adaptive systems as one of many systems theories.
Some of its assumptions (multiple parts, connections, behaviors of the
whole, etc.) are like other systems approaches while other assumptions
(self-organizing, non-teleology, dialectical causality, sensitive
dependence,  and so on) are unique to complexity.  As much trouble as
multiple systems perspectives have agreeing even to the simple cross-systems
assumptions, I suspect we'll have a great deal of disagreement about what
the assumptions are for complex systems, to say nothing of how those
assumptions relate to other systems approaches.  

At any rate, it is an interesting question and I look forward to hearing
others' insights about the relationships between complexity theory and
systems theory.  G    

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kb-complexity-bounces@list.knowledgeboard.com 
> [mailto:kb-complexity-bounces@list.knowledgeboard.com] On 
> Behalf Of kb-complexity-request@list.knowledgeboard.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 7:11 PM
> To: kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com
> Subject: Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 1, Issue 3
> 
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Hello World (Christian Hauck)
>    2. Thoughts and ideas.... (Carol Webb)
>    3. Re: Thoughts and ideas.... (Warren Linds)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 19:14:49 +0100
> From: Christian Hauck <christianhauck@christianhauck.net>
> Subject: [Kb-complexity] Hello World
> To: kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com
> Message-ID: <440DCD99.50900@christianhauck.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> ... another try: Hello World from my proper mail account: 
> christianhauck. No, this software is not complex. And it's 
> not that simple. Looking 
> forward to others finding out how to post.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 15:08:23 -0800 (PST)
> From: Carol Webb <carolwebb75@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Kb-complexity] Thoughts and ideas....
> To: kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com
> Message-ID: <20060307230823.44893.qmail@web51815.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Hi - just dropping a line myself since 21 of you have
> now signed up to this mailing list. Not sure if and
> how this aspect of the SIG will work apart from in the
> usual way (i.e. a few people say some stuff when the
> mailing list is first initiated and then it very
> rarely gets used at all after that! ;-) )
> Any other experiences of mailing lists that manage to
> sustain regular activity on them? What seems to work
> well that keeps people emailing? Is it having a good
> old argument? The exchange of radical views? Sharing
> of common thoughts and ideas? Genteel conversation?
> All of the above and more...?
> In terms of how this list will fit in with the SIG on
> the KnowledgeBoard site itself, I suppose it could
> underpin it and be a place for bashing around ideas
> about what to do there in a *more* public way...? A
> place for volunteers to step up and say something
> like, "hey, I've got an idea, I'd like to write a
> short thought piece on how complexity science relates
> to knowledge management / performance managment /
> leadership / something else - would anyone like to
> write one from a contrasting point of view, post them
> both under the umbrella on one discussion topic on the
> KB, and see what comments/conversation this
> stimulates?..."
> Or... "hey, I've got an idea, why don't we get Dr X
> and Professor Y to take part in an online debate
> around a few central questions?"... etc
> MMMmmmm.... any response to any of this welcome... :-)
> Best wishes, Carol
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 18:50:45 -0500
> From: Warren Linds <w.linds@sasktel.net>
> Subject: Re: [Kb-complexity] Thoughts and ideas....
> To: "KnowledgeBoard: Complexity group mailing list"
> 	<kb-complexity@list.knowledgeboard.com>
> Message-ID: <d2a3be3d8984.440dd605@sasktel.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> 
> Here is a question that has been puzzling me since someone 
> asked me this...What is the difference or links between 
> complexity theory and systems theory?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Warren Linds
> Montreal, Canada
> 
> 
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> End of Kb-complexity Digest, Vol 1, Issue 3
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